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Achieving Business Alignment with Talent Development Programs

Achieving Business Alignment with Talent Development Programs | HRDQ-U Webinar

60 minutes

Does the program connect to the business? Does it drive business? If so, how much and how do you know? These are all questions asked of today’s talent development program owners.

This session will explore how business alignment is achievable at the beginning of a talent development program by connecting the program to a specific business measure and ensuring that the focus remains through the program with specific impact objectives. This session will also describe how to collect impact data and isolate program effects from other factors to prove that business alignment has occurred. Using examples, case studies, and exercises, this session will emphasize the need for business alignment for talent development programs. 


Attendees will learn

  • How to describe the alignment model to a particular client.
  • How to identify five levels of outcome.
  • How to align talent development to the business in the beginning.
  • How to keep the focus on alignment with impact objectives.
  • How to validate the alignment on a follow-up evaluation. 

Who should attend

  • Talent development professionals
  • HR and training professionals
  • Managers and supervisors


Patti Phillips

Patti P. Phillips, Ph.D., CEO of ROI Institute, Inc., is a renowned leader in measurement and evaluation. Patti helps organizations implement the ROI Methodology®️ in more than 70 countries around the world.

Since 1997, Patti has been a driving force in the global adoption of the ROI Methodology and the use of measurement and evaluation to drive organization change. Her work as an educator, researcher, consultant, and coach supports practitioners as they develop their own expertise in an effort to help organizations and communities thrive. Her work spans private sector, public sector, nonprofit, and nongovernmental organizations.

Patti serves as a member of the Board of Trustees of the United Nations Institute for Training and Research (UNITAR). She serves as chair of the Institute for Corporate Productivity (i4cp) People Analytics Board; Principal Research Fellow for The Conference Board; board chair of the Center for Talent Reporting (CTR); and is an Association for Talent Development (ATD) Certification Institute Fellow. She also serves on the faculty of the UN System Staff College in Turin, Italy.

Patti has authored or edited more than 75 books on the subject of measurement, evaluation, analytics, and ROI. Her work has been featured on CNBC, Euronews, and in more than a dozen business journals. Connect with Patti on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and at



Training professionals everywhere are feeling pressure to prove the value and impact which their training initiatives can bring to the organization. Without a proven return on investment (ROI) of learning, management buy-in and training budgets are in jeopardy. HRDQstore provides a range of tools for helping you learn how to calculate ROI for your learning initiatives. Learn more at

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Achieving Business Alignment with Talent Development Programs


Hi everyone, and welcome to today’s webinar, Achieving Business Alignment with Talent Development Programs, hosted by HRDQ-U and presented by Doctor Patti Phillips.


Today’s webinar is sponsored by HRDQstore.


Training Professionals everywhere are feeling pressured to prove the value and impact, which their training initiatives can bring to the organization without a proven return on investment or ROI of learning.


Management buy in and training budgets might be in jeopardy. HRDQstore provides a range of tools for calculating the ROI for your learning initiatives. Don’t let your initiatives get asked before you prove their bottom-line value. Learn more at


And I’m excited to introduce our presenter today, Doctor Patti Phillips. Patti is the CEO of ROI Institute, a renowned leader in measurement and evaluation.


Patti helps organizations implement the ROI methodology in more than 70 countries around the world.


Since 1997, she has been a driving force in the global adoption of the ROI methodology and the use of measurement and evaluation to drive organizational change.


Her work as an educator, researcher, consultant, and coach, supports practitioners as they develop their own expertise and an effort to help organizations and communities thrive.


Her work spans the private sector, public sector, non-profit, and non-governmental organizations. Thank you so much for joining us today, Patty.


Thanks, Sarah. Thanks, everyone for joining us today. I just want to give a shout out to Andy Vance.


Who is online with us too. Andy works here at ROI Institute.


He will help you and Sarah and myself as we need it, so if you need anything from us, just say, hey, Andy, pop it in the chat there for you.


So, today’s session, we’re going to talk about aligning training and development programs to the business.


Specifically, we’ll talk about the alignment model that we have, and that’s where we’re leveraging our framework of data, both at the evaluation phase.


When we’re developing our objectives, and at the needs assessment that, we’ll talk about how to connect the dots between the two, how to keep focus on alignment throughout the process of implementation of your programs.


And then we’ll talk about validation alignment through evaluation.


So we have some goodies. for you. Some of you have attended our webinars before. And if you have, you know that we like to give away stuff.


So this is a QR code to our portal, where you can download our alignment conversation. This is what we’re talking about today. Is that alignment conversation.


How do you ensure that you’re clear on why you’re implementing a program and clear on the feasibility of the solution you’re proposing?


And so if you’ll download this alignment conversation, it will give you some questions to help you have that conversation.


Or at least think through the issues you need to think through to ensure alignment exist between your programs and what the business needs.


Also, we’re giving you a chapter first chapter of the book, The Business Case for Learning.


It’s a book we partnered on with HRDQ and ATD. In the first chapter really explains what we’re talking about today.


Also, you have in the portal now, you can download this application guide if you choose to, Sarah popped it in there for everyone. This is the process that we’re talking about. This is our Y and 12 Easy steps, so feel free to download it now, here in the portal, or you can wait and access it.


And the resources portal that we’re sharing, then value for money. We’re going to talk about a couple of case studies, and we’re sharing those case studies with you from this book that we developed.


These are our best teaching case studies, and that’s why we like to share them.


It’s case studies that we have used, over the years, their actual case daddies, that demonstrate the impact and … different types of programs. So, they’re coming from our clients and from participants in our certification process.


But there are some of our favorites that we used to teach, because they bring out a lot of issues. So we’re going to be sharing some of those case studies with you, as well.


And if you hear me mention anything online today that may be of interest to you, and maybe we didn’t include it in the portal, or maybe you don’t remember whether we did or not. Just pop it in the Q and A, and we will make sure and give it to you, want to make sure you have the tools that you need to use what you’ve learned in today’s session.


So, to kick it off, all I want you to do is take a look at the case study on the screen.


Now, this was an article was in 2018, but it is one of our favorite demonstrations of what can happen with our programs and projects. So, this article was published on the front page of the London Telegraph.


It says, clearly you see the headline there, the metropolitan plays are accused of wasting £10 million on leadership training program as crime soars.


So, it was a leadership development program.


It included a blend of soft skills, so all the coaching and the soft skills, that we learn in our leadership development program, it was 50,000 hours of 1 to 1 coaching.


Involved in this program, five days of a workshop, that people had the off the job.


For five days, it included at 360-degree feedback process, as we often see it, also, they did affording Personality Profile.


So they came out of it, knowing if their blue, red, green, yellow, whatever, color, personality. So, all of this was the program.


Here’s some of the feedback: so feedback from one of the participants: people were really upset about participating. this program. This is the metropolitan police.


We’re taking the police off the streets and putting them in leadership development, yet the crime is going up, as you see here, from the Met Blaze, Federation Chairman crime sort we’re taking our, our officers often off the street.


Crimes going up were given his leadership program, and they don’t understand it, right? They don’t understand. What, why. Why are we doing this now?


You do have someone that speaks out in defense of the leadership program.


London is the single biggest employer. They need to support leaders by giving them the skills they need to do their job.


Well led, well, trained, people, deliver better. And ultimately, that means Londoners get right servants.


So just think about that for a minute and reflect on that in the Q and A.


Answer this question, what’s going on here?


So front page of the paper, crime soaring yet, the metropolitan police are spending millions of pounds on leadership development.


Participants are saying, why are we doing this?


Like, what’s in it for us and for the community? we’ve got crime. We could take this money, spend it on something else. What’s going on here?


All right.


Yeah, type your responses in that questions area, and we can share some of those answers that we received today.


So we have poor communications.


Yeah, one would say, right, Sean. It’s like poor communications, communication is so important, so.


Lack of communication, anything else?


What’s going on?


We have poor communication.


Anyone else, comments?


We have another comment coming through from Jessica, Jennifer, who said mixed messages.


All right, the mixed messages here.


Any other comments?


Quiet crowd with us, so far.


Not bought into training, says, Chris, absolutely. Good listener.


Oh, here, they come, OK.


The content of the program wasn’t aligned with the needs of the leaders.


Participants don’t see it as a value add, and lack of application.


So, we’ve gotta disconnect. Right?


So, some, or communication the participants, aren’t bought in. We know better than anyone, if they’re not bought in it, is not going to be done.


Or, it’s going to be, we’re going to be hard pressed to get it done.


So, no buy in, no application, ah, myths messages.


So we’ve got a problem, right? We’ve got this misalignment.


Now, we know there are different ways that we can demonstrate value of our programs, and that programs are delivering value.


First step is that what we spend, now, that the Level zero data, what we spend, the inputs, that’s not value, that’s investment.


In some respects, these data do tell us the organization is kneaded to investing in their people. So Level zero data aren’t all bad.


It’s just looking at the investment of the program is an indicator that they’re committed to making change to some respect, but when we start looking at results, we’ve gotta look at what is it people think about it, what did those participants think about it? And get the Scotland Yard case, they were saying, are you kidding me?


I’ve got this one-on-one coaching. I’m five days off, the job prime rate has is on our knees.


And I’m learning what color personality I am.


I’ve gotta learn something. What people learn is value. It’s important. People need to learn something new. Maybe know how to do their job better. Learn to lead better.


So, people have to be willing and able to do what we want them to do to get real value.




What is it that people are doing differently, right?


That is a measure of value behaviors change So what they know what color personality they are.


What are they doing with that? knowledge?


That insight So what you’ve done that 360 feedback?


That’s given them some insight about how they’re performing against some competencies and how others think they’re performing So what? how is it changing plus the change?


So application level three is important, is demonstrating value. People are changing their behavior. They’re using what they’re learning. They’re using what they’re learning to the extent we want them to, they’re using the new skills with, with the frequency with which we want them to.


Those are important measures.


Isn’t impact business impact data answer that? So, what question? So, what?


They’re changing their behaviors, they’re applying the leadership skills, they’re using the insights gained through those personality assessments, So what?


How is that improving measures of output, quality, cost time, customer satisfaction, job satisfaction, work habits, innovation, how is it impacting primary?


Is crime going down?


Because our police officers are better leaders in the community because they know how to lead.


And I learned how to lead by buying into a program in which the city invested.


And then there’s our why.


Why is that ultimate indicator of program success, from an economic standpoint, is comparing the monetary benefits of the program.


So taking your impact measures, isolating the effects of the program on the improvement in those measures, converting them to money, comparing it to the cost measure ROI. So it’s taking the monetary benefits of the program, comparing it to the cost.


To get us to one metric that says good use of resources are wise talent is the extent to which we are efficiently using the resources.


So, different measures of outcomes.


Now, when we talk about ROI, this is a refresher for some of you, because I know some of you have been on the other sessions with us before.


When we talk about ROI, we’re talking about the benefit cost ratio or the ROI percentage, and we use these two indicators.


Economic, return, because we can use these across any program.


Whether it’s a training program, marketing initiative, lean six Sigma, implementation Project management, we can use these two measures, and that’s what you want. You want to use a measure that is common across all programs. So you can make comparisons when you’re looking at funding.


So, benefit cost ratio, again, a refresher for many of you.


is the output, a cost benefit analysis?


Cost benefit analysis is grounded in welfare, economics, and public finance. It is a government metric.


Here, we’re comparing the monetary benefits, the program benefits that have been converted to money to the program cost.


So your program benefits will come from profit if you’re increasing sales.


Otherwise, it will be cost savings or cost avoidance.


So our investments in learning and development are helping the organization and make money, save money or a boy cause while doing greater good because we also want to count those intangibles.


But, your numerator is going to be made up of either profit, cost, savings, cost, avoidance, and then, we have the program cost, ROI comes from business and finance, or accounting and finance. So, it’s coming from the business sector.


Here, we’re looking at the efficient use of resources as well.


BCR, is used historically used to determine the feasibility of public projects that was stored for use.


R a Y, again, coming from business’s use, of, looking at the efficient use of resources.


Here, we’re taking the net program benefits.


So, if you look at the classic ROI formula, its earnings divided by investment, to get to earnings, because we’re not selling, every game is not always sales, sometimes we’ve got cost, avoidance, cost savings.


So, rather than use earnings, we use net program benefits, compared the program costs Now to get to net program benefits, all we have to do is take the program benefits, minus the program cost that will get you the net.


And then compare to program benefits, ROI is reported as a percentage, Benefit cost ratio is reported as a ratio. So, those are the two formulas that we use. There are many measures of economic value. It is internal rate of return, return on equity, return on assets, they all have special use.


These two measures can be used.


Or anything or comparing benefits to cost, so, and that’s what we want. We want something we can use across the board.


So, real quick, you’re one math problem.


For the session, let’s assume this is just demonstrating the formulas and the difference in the formulas.


Your benefit cost ratio implemented a program and it’s helped save the organization $750,000 the cost of the program 425,000.


Grab your calculators and calculate the BCR.


And then I want you to calculate the ROI. Again, you’ve got your net benefit. So, net benefits.


It’s your benefits minus the cost divided by the Cost times 100.


I just want to show you the differences in these two, and then we’re going to talk about, How do you help ensure you get those positive returns on investment, and that’s where alignment.


So, with those calculators, and I know you have them.


Nothing else.


You have them on your phone, which I think is the ones we use most of the time anymore, anyway.


And while you’re doing the math, just a reminder, that 750,000 comes from either gross profit if you’re selling something.


So if it’s increase in sales, you convert that to gross profit, is and profit margin standard value, otherwise, that 700,000 would come from cost savings.


So, reducing complaints, reducing turnover, or cost, avoidance, of your implementing a policy, or implementing a safety initiative.


If you’re trying to avoid accidents, you’re avoiding that cost.


So, again, profit, cost savings, cost avoidance, and then the cost of the program that you’re fully loaded cost.


That includes your needs assessment, design, development, implementation, and evaluation.


So, serenaded, do we see any answers to our math problems yet?


Not yet. You can type those responses, again, into the questions box, and we can share the results that we receive and see if we get the right answer.


OK, so I’m going to carry on.


Go ahead and still pop your answers in.


I’m trying to keep my eye on the chat as well, but still pop your answers in, let’s say, but I am going to start walking us through it.


We have some. We actually have some responses coming through over there. If you see those Patti say that, good job, guys.


All right. Thank you.


Thank you. Alright. Very good.


I think it just takes a little while to get it through.




Nice. Job. Miriam?


OK, as what we have, that good job, So your benefit cost ratio is 1.76 and typically you’re going to see it Read 1.76 to 1 That’s your colon. So, typically, it’s written like this, But the answer is 1.76.


And so, this is telling us, for every $1 you invest in that program, you get a dollar, 76% back, engross benefit, So it’s 1.76, Your R a Y, Remember, is the net.


So, … reported as a percentage, so you multiply it times 100 to get to the 76% return on investment.


This is telling us, for every $1 we invest in a program or project, we get the dollar back plus an additional 76%.


So if you were to move the decimal back over to the left, a big zero point seven six, so if you do your math, the base 750 -425, that, about 425, would equal white, 76 times 100 gives us the 76%. So that’s the difference.


one is growth, one is net.


Every now and then, we will see someone take the benefit cost ratio, 750, about 425.


That equals the 1.76.


Then they will multiply it times 100 and report an ROI of 176%.


Let’s not do that, OK? That would be incorrect. Want to get your math, right?


Get the formula, right?


We want to get all of the ride, but when it comes to the math is evident if you know what you need to know.


So, BCR is going to be the 1.76.


The ROI is going to be the net, OK, makes sense. So, that’s your ultimate measure of program success, from an economic perspective. But all the measures are important, because they’re telling us how we’re doing all along the way. Your reaction and learning data are telling us that people are willing and able to do what you want them to do.


You need those data. You just want to make sure that you’re asking good questions when you go out to get those data.


Application data, tell us people are doing what we want them to do, the way we want them to do.


Impact Day, the answer. The: So, what question.


How much improvement are we seeing and output? Or the cost time? Customer satisfaction, job satisfaction, work habits, innovation, and how much of that is due to the program and not something else.


Then R Y puts in a different perspective.


I say, OK, what’s it worth?


How much did you make or say, or avoid in monetary terms, and how does that compare to the cost of the solution? That’s what our white tells.


So these are all the data that we work with when we’re trying to demonstrate the value for leadership development or any other type program.


Now to achieve alignment, to ensure we are aligning our programs with the business, we’re going to use this framework three ways we use it to categorize the results of our evaluation.


We also use it to categorize the objectives.


For our program, the definition of an objective, ids, an intended outcome that’s intended outcome so by definition, an objective is an intended outcome.


It is the measure of success. It is the target we are trying to achieve.


It is the key result we’re trying to achieve.


Basically, your objective is the measure you’re going to take during your evaluation.


So, we’re going to use that framework.


Categorize those objectives.


now, where did the objectives come from?


Objectives come from the needs assessment. So, we’re going to use that framework to categorize our needs, to by connecting needs, to objectives, and objectives to evaluation. We now have an alignment model.


That’s why it’s so important for evaluators and instructional designers and performance consultants to talk to each other and to be working from that same dictionary.


That same model, because performance consultants are telling instructional designers what needs to happen. Instructional designers create the objectives and then design accordingly.


And then, the evaluators are there to evaluate.


Well, if you want evaluators to measure the right things, we need good objectives, and we need the right objectives and to get the right objectives.


We need good assessment on the front end.


So the three talk to each other, That’s alignment.


So if we could ever get there, we can really have something up programs and do major work for less cost.


Because so much of the time, we keep trying to make the change and make the change, and we keep throwing money at it.


And nothing happens. And it’s often because we never had that alignment at the beginning.


Now, alignment begins here on the left side. So the left side of the bay answers the question, Why? Why are we doing what we’re doing?


The middle part answers the how.


How are we going to do it?


How are we going to design and facilitate and implement the program or the process, and how are we going to measure success?


And in the right side of the bay, answers, the question, What?


What results came from it? So you have the how, the why, and the why.


Another way to look at it is assessment on the left side, measure mat, which quantifies the needs from the assessment, and evaluation. So if you think Assessment, measurement, Evaluation, left side is assessment, middle, is measurement right side, it’s evaluation.


So Assessment, Measurement, Evaluation, or why, how, and what.


Again, the wye begins on the left side.


And it really begins with those first two levels of need.


OK, is level 4 and 5 on our framework, but here we’re looking at the payoff opportunity in the business needs. Those are the first things we need to know before we ever get to the solution.


So in Scotland Yard, they had a problem.


They had pride.


Crime was soaring, so huge CRI big crime causes an odd kind of problem in Scotland Yard. So what exactly is the business measure?


So it’s crime rate, but what type of crime? So violent crime, petty crime. What type is it? So, you want to define what that is.


So, your pay off opportunity is the opportunity for the organization to make money, save money on void cost or do some greater good while making money saved. Many avoiding costs. We want to capture all of that.


It’s all important.


We need to do well financially to do good in the community.


So is nothing wrong with looking at both that? Right.


We want to do great things, but to do that, we’ve got to manage our resources. So at the payoff need, we’re looking at that, make money, say, many a boy, costs do greater good in the community for the environment.


But at the State level, we have to define what we mean.


What are the specific measures that need to improve that if we improve them, will help us take advantage of this pay off opportunity?


So we’re going to show you a quick video. Fingers crossed, this works. Because this is our first to do a video with Sarah. Sarah can make it work as we’ll make sure we’re making the webinar.


And I’ll show you a video, which is demonstrate a little bit different thinking, then what we saw was Scotland Yard, so they’re Navy. We’re going to give this a go.


Hopefully this work.


Were, just tough, mean. We talked down to people. I’m a Police officer, you’re the bad guy and you’re going to do what I say. Just went out every night. Will say, we just put people in jail. I was our job. I don’t care who you are, what you did. this is the way I’m going to deal with you. ***** off, you can sit there. In the snow. It’s the city of doing standing here in the corner, why did he go get a job, why you know why Z, Y, Z out here. You know Ruin my day. We were one of the most complained on Squads of the department. We used to get a number of times I would get phone calls. We get phone calls, people complaining …


in my life. How can we fix? How do we get this back to where we want to go, because this is not where we wanna go. I was in a really weird place, because I was feeling all the self-doubt. And looking back on a lot of the things that I had done, and I was very disappointed in myself, everybody’s problem was just a problem. That’s not my problem, I don’t really care, I’m getting paid to do what I do. See, people come and go through this unit, we’re just drove him nuts. The job is extremely isolating, and you feel like people don’t understand, we’re going down a bad path on indefinitely for, for a crash landing. As a leader, I was too self-centered. I feel like I had to start all over again. Like, I didn’t know what. So, we said, well, you know what, why don’t we try and get these people into the class and see, see what happens. I came pretty much as an excuse to be away from my normal duties for …


days, going into the class, I was still class, whatever. And then I sat and kind of listen to the stories and the examples. Other people talk, I just sat back. Wow. I thought I was dealing with, did that, were felt that we start talking about leadership, which I’m talking about, this idea of seeing people as people, and I never looked at it like that. Everybody was, was an object. And just something that I had to do for me, what I liked about the material was kind of spoke to me personally, and then I got to see how it applied professionally. If even one person came up and said, this gave me a whole new way to talk to myself. Or my co-worker that I just couldn’t read or anything like that. And there was not a classical provided, we didn’t have, at least somewhat, arbitrary prompts us to question the way that we’re doing.


And the amazing thing I see with conversations where people completely left there, guard down and relationships are formed, traditionally, people have just had their guard up whenever you see the uniform come out and letting them know that, hey, it doesn’t have to be a contentious communication between us. It can definitely be a new day. More people in the law enforcement community within these philosophies. As a means of doing their everyday business, after talking about these concepts and kind of adopted the way we do things. We went 3.5 years with no complaints. We haven’t had a complaint related to a search warrant like five years without a search. And in that time, they received an award from the chief, for recovery, more guns, and more drugs, more money than the previous decade. We just don’t receive complaints.


I just think there’s some way that they have learned to interact with your still police officer, but I felt like every situation in every issue was its own. And I truly feel like, even though if I take an extra 5 or 10 minutes with an individual, more so than I would have, I feel like, when I’ve left, I feel like I’ve truly help somebody.


OK, so in the chat, real quick, what, what is that?


What is the impact measure? Let’s start that, what is the measure they’re trying to improve?


What’s a Why here, A great commercial for our Binger, right?


There’s good program, great case study, we’re going to actually give you the case study in the oral that we shared, but what’s the why? yet decrease the number of complaints rights pretty clear?


And it’s not just any complaint, its complaints related to this unit.


So while we’ve got a big problem in the community, We’ve got a lot of complaints coming in. The, the issue is these complaints from this gene.


And one of those complaints come and crop, there’s crazy behavior.


They go away, and they kick the dog, But I think this is what they should be doing, and they looked at complaints is a good thing. Yeah, the more complaints I feel like they were doing their job. So the issue here is complaints.


Now, the complaints, as you’ll see in the actual case study, cost saving about $770,000 per complaint. And that was just for investigation.


That didn’t include everything else that they had to deal with, whether it’s suit or no property damage issues or any of that **** investigation of it. So they had the payoff neat as well.


At the bottom line is they went into it with a clear notion.


We’re got, we’ve got to deal with these complaints, and that’s what they did. Now, the next issue. So, step one, is, when we get clear on the why, why are we doing it big different from Scotland Yard, right?


They wouldn’t, because somebody said, hey, leadership, development is the right thing to do, and we’re going to do it.


Here, they’re trying to solve a problem.


In this could be anything, it could be, you have people walk into the job, oh, my gosh, it’s happening. Now, ripe ever walked off the job. Well, what’s our business need?




Those frontline workers?


They’re walking off the job that is the professions, so you get clear on it. What is the need? What does the payoff need?


Was an opportunity for the organization to make money, save Money, Boy cost, and then get specific around the business measure, turnover up, complaints about what time, in terms of what Quality, would be talking about rejects or errors?


What kind of air?


So get a specific, as you can, with the business name, and try to clarify, OK, what that costing us was the value.


So that’s your walk.


Now, what we’re going to do, we’re going to sort out, OK. What’s causing it?


And then that will get us to the feasibility of the solution, so, we’re going to work on that feasible solution.


So, now we know the why.


What’s OK? What’s the feasible solution?


So the next step is what’s causing it?


What’s causing the problem? What do people need to do that they’re not doing now?


What do they need to stop doing, that they’re doing now? What needs to change, that if we changed it, can help us improve the business measure and take advantage of the payoff opportunity.


So here’s another example.


C Core Bank, this is one of the case studies that you’re going to get one of our favorite teaching case studies.


The payoff neat.


There are mergers and acquisitions going on during this period of time when the study was done, so it was taken out all the competition. The financial institution had operational issues.


Customer service scores were at an all-time low, and they had major turnover across the bang.


But a big part of their problem, in terms of turnover, actually, the most costly, was turnover of that front line staff, OK?


Those teller’s, those people who are servicing the customer.


So your pay off need is turnover and the cost of turnover.


But above that is, we’ve got issues with our customers.


They’re leaving us, their score is low, so customer issues, turnover issues, the specific measure that they wanted to target was at voluntary turnover of that frontline staff, 71% turnover each year.


They were losing 336 employees from the branches every year.


That’s what was really contributing to that customer service problem.


The cost of turnover, and I know it is low, but at the time, this is the cause of the turnover, cost of turnover, 16, 6, 16,000, 650, now, we know what our pay off opportunity is, losing customers in major turn up.


The specific need is turnover in the branches, because that’s the group servicing the customer.


What would be your approach to determine the cause of turnout?


So, you know the payoff need, you know, the business need, now you need to know what’s causing it.


So what would be your approach?


What are you going to do to determine the cause of turnover?


Again, with that, pay off any business needs, so we know the why.


Now, we’re going to work toward a feasible solution and to do that, we have to ask ourselves. what’s causing it. What’s causing this problem?


Exit interviews. OK, thanks, Robin.


So exit interviews, anyone else?


Well, how are you going to do it?


So, we have exit interviews, Anyone else?


OK, great Robin, thanks, yeah, possible engagement survey, see what they’re telling you in terms of those key indicators along that engagement survey.


Indicators, it tells you, there’s a problem, and I am a potential flight risk.


Right, So we’ve got exit interviews, engagement surveys, some other techniques that we can use to diagnose a problem, are, some of your more technical techniques, like, statistical process control, maybe not for turnover.


But there are some, some problems we can address using that.


I’m just in, Napa looking at yours and satisfied with the workload. Yeah.


Yeah, good indicator.


So, these are some of the others we can do is we have exit interviews, we have engagement data, we have employee satisfaction data, which is now the engagement day look at, but we also have these other techniques, that we can use: brainstorming, sit around brainstorm cause and effect diagrams, affinity diagram, all kind of diagnostic instruments, right? Focus, groups, interviews.


Nominal group technique, OK, so, different diagnostic tools that we can use to assess the cause, a couple of others.


Organization, network analysis, same way doing this, oh, and Andy about doing that. So we use a tool called Polinode and if you’re not doing O & A, because you think it’s too expensive, you’d like to give it a try.


Connect with the guys, high note, simple, easy tool to use, not too expensive.


We’d love to connect you with them, or you can just reach out to them just Google Polinode. But this is the tool that we use to do O & A.


Organization network analysis is a way to see, you know, the extent which people are collaborating and who’s collaborating with whom. And, you know, what does that network look like?


You know, sometimes if people are on the fringes, when you do your analysis, you may it may indicate flight risk because they’re not fully engaged.


Sometimes you may have people who are the key contact, the go to person.


People always go to them with their issue. That means they can’t get their work done because you’re so busy helping everyone out, so they’re the ones close to burnout there, your flight risk.


So you can use tools like network analysis.


You can also use more qualitative tools. So this is a doctor Angie Walker did a study for the US Navy. They had retention problem.


She wanted to find out, what can we do about this retention problem? So she was looking for a cause. Why were these young female officers leaving?


At the point in time, the dataset that they were leaving, she used a qualitative research method called Interpretive Phenomenological analysis.


Sounds big. Sounds complicated.


But really, it’s just deep dive interview to understand the experience these individuals were having. She didn’t have to do that many interviews. She had 11.


But they were dig down, deep down dive, dig down deep dive, interviews, to really understand that total experience.


And what these women were feeling, what they were experiencing to understand what was keeping them from stay, you know, what was causing them to leave. And then she came up with a strategy to address it.


So, when we think about determining cod’s, lot of techniques we can use for turnover, exit interviews, and exit surveys, our typical go to.


But, we all know that the value of those is limited, because not everyone completes the interview.


Not everyone conflates the survey, those who didn’t complete it, either, or those who really have something to say positively or negatively, we often miss the middle ground on those. So we’ll look to other techniques. So just think there’s not one best way. There’s a variety of ways they won’t want to dig down to see what is actually happening or not happening.


And sometimes, you know, what, know, we’re analytics people. We like quantitative but sometimes the numbers just dovetail, you just have to go ask.


And so that’s what happened in this case study, that will show you the C Corps Bank, they just went to ask, they wanted to know what’s causing it.


So what they did is they used nominal group technique.


They looked at the exit interviews.


Did nominal group technique to conduct nominal group technique.


They identified those people.


the represented, the workforce that was departing said it went to other people in the branches that represented those people departing, so the tellers in the branches, the customer serve as people in the branches. And they asked them a simple question.


And that question was, why are your colleagues leaving?


They didn’t ask the question, why would you leave me? I want to do that as putting them on the spot. And I don’t want you to know that you’re thinking, you’re thinking about leaving everything that leave. And so they said, why your colleagues leaving?


And they used a very structured process to rank order all the reasons They’re colleagues were leaving; they came up with five reasons for the departure.


And through that process, they determined skill-based pay program, would be a good solution to invest, and to address all five of those problems.


So alignment begins with the why.


Why? Why don’t we address it, Is what’s really happening here, was the why.


And then we sort out what’s the solution and that begins by answering the question: What caused it? What’s causing these measures not to perform the way they should?


Once we had the solution, that’s when we start sorting out, what do people need to know to make this solution work?


What do people need to know to do what we want them to do? So we can improve the business measures, so we can take advantage of the payoff opportunity and how best we roll it out so that people buy it.


And if they buy and they’re more likely to learn what we need them to know to do what we want them to do, so we can address the business measures, and take advantage of the payoff opportunity.


And then input needs is simply, who’s going to be involved?


How are we going deliver it? How much are we going to spend? This input needs becomes the project itself.


So input needs represents the investment you’re going to make.


So back to C corps Bank.


They had their exit interviews, ran their nominal group technique, this solution with skill-based pay program, and then they had to sort out, what is it people need to know to make this program work? They needed to know why the initiative was underway.


The role of the different employees in the branch, how the process was going to work.


Target staff acquire certain knowledge and skills. So, there was that level of learning as well.


Building those skills and capabilities in managers need them to learn how to coach the employees, to make it work.


So, you look at Who needs to know what, what do people need to know to make the solution work? And then, how do we watch this? so it can work?


And then we look at the investment.


So, alignment begins on that left side of the Bay, OK, what’s the why?


What’s causing the business measures not to be what they need to be, what needs to change?


Who needs to stop doing, what, who needs to start doing what?


And then, once we have the solution, what is it people need to learn to do what we want them to do.


To improve the business measures, take advantage of the opportunity, and then all you have to do from there is take what you learn from that needs assessment and develop those objectives.


We want these objectives to be as specific as possible.


Specific, measurable, time bound. We want the target and the objectives, and we want the object of the objectives, all the way up to that ROI objectives.


Because our designers are going to design around the objectives, our facilitators facilitate toward the objectives.


And our evaluators are going to evaluate to see if we achieve the objectives.


Objectives represent that architectural blueprint.


They also represent the intended outcome. They represent the measures we’re going to take during the evaluation.


So, this is our phase to expect success develop those objectives for each level, and then all you have to do is go collect a little data to see what the results are.


So this is a little bit of an eye chart. You’ll see some of these examples and the tools that we give you, and we’re going to give you the PDF of the slide deck.


Let you see how this one works, and this example worker absenteeism was a problem, about $10000 per month for this organization.


The business measure was unplanned the absences.


The analysis showed that the supervisors and senior staff just didn’t have what it took to coach people toward better performance and to coach people when they didn’t show up for work.


And so they implemented a program where the supervisors and senior staff learn how to set expectations and goals. I’ve learned how to coach.


The employees also learn the resources available to them why they felt MIS treated in the organization.


They rolled it out in such a way that everyone involved viewed it as practical and that they were committed to actually making it work.


And then we have our objectives in the middle, and all they had to do is collect data to see if in fact, they achieve the objectives.


That’s your alignment.


It begins on the left side of the V, carries on through with those objectives because the objectives are going to set us up for success. And then evaluation just validates.


The fact that we achieve the objectives as objectives are key.


So another way to look at the alignment model is through our 12 step process.


And this is it 12 easy steps to Roi.


To get to those positive returns on investment, we have to align our programs with the business, and it all starts with these first three boxes.


Start with the why. Why are we doing what we’re doing?


Identify the most feasible solution that begins with determining the cause of the problem. Or what needs to change.


To take advantage of the opportunity.


Get to the right solution using methodology, and then sort out those objectives.


What exactly is it that you want your people to think about this program?


What do you want them to learn? What do you want them to do with what they learn?


And if they do it, what key performance indicators need to improve?


And by how much?


And by when.


And then designed around those objectives.


All you have to do from there is collect a little data.


We collect level 1 and 2 data during the program, because that’s when we need the data.


We don’t do it because it’s convenient. We do it because that’s when we need the data. We use different techniques to collect data.


At level 1 and 2, typically, it’s going to be that end, of course, questionnaire, that Pulse survey, that polling instrument, but we want to make sure that we collect the data in a timely fashion, in such a way that we will get good data.


And, of course, all of it begins by asking good questions.


Level two, Level two: conveying knowledge, skill information. Inside, we collect that data throughout the program, we need to know early, are people willing and able to do what we want them to do?


And then, we’re going to follow up to see if, in fact they’re doing it.


Are they applying the knowledge, skill, information inside the way we want them to? And are those key business measures improving?


Then, through our analysis, we’re going to answer the question, how do we know, how do we know the improvement that we’re claiming is due to our program, and not something else? That’s our step to isolate the effects of the program.


That’s a webinar in and of itself, and if you’re ever interested in a webinar just on this, let Sarah know, we’ll be happy to do it for you, but here, we’re answering that question: How do you know is your program that caused the results you play?


We use techniques like control group, trend line analysis. We’ll use mathematical modeling sometimes.


Sometimes we just go ask people, if you can’t get to the data, and even if you can get to the data, sometimes you still need to just go ask.


And then, so if you stopped your evaluation here, you would still have a good program that’s aligned to the business, because here, you can make a claim that the improvement in the business measures is due to your program.


Without this step, you can’t do that.


But if you take this step at the business impact level, you can actually answer that question now to get it on to our why. All you have to do is convert measures to money.


We may use standard values, historical cost, expert input. We may do databases. Sometimes we use analysis to help us convert measures to money, but you’re converting it to money.


Some measures you’re going to choose not to convert to money, you’re still gonna measure them, you’re still gonna isolate the impact of the program on improvement in these measures.


These intangibles we’re choosing not to convert money and we do that because some measures are strong enough without the monetary value without having to invest in that step.


So measures that we choose not to convert money was still report as the intangibles, Bring in your costs, calculate the ROI, you know, how the formulas work.


Then you’re going to report it out. Votes.


Evaluation without communication is a worthless endeavor. Don’t do it.


Tell your story in a compelling way.


Get it, ****, get it’s saying, tell that story, and then go use the data.


one of the biggest issues that we’re saying, we’re going to We’ve been doing this for a long time.


We’ve been around a long time. We were doing Roi before it became a big thing.


Jack developed the process back in the seven days and has implemented that process and linear organizations. I’ve been doing it for 25 years.


We’re the reason you keep hearing about ROI, but the biggest problem within any of it, whether it’s our methodology or somebody else’s process, or whatever. You’re learning analytics. The biggest problem with all of it is people do not use the data.


They do the evaluation and check it off.


And that’s not what we want you to do.


The ROI of the ROI methodology, the Roi of Learning analytics, are why people analytics, the ROI of big data analytics is and what you do with it. It is about process improvement.


If you are only collecting data at level one, you’re not using that data to create change.


If you’re one of those, it just kind of a duet, because that’s what you do.


Don’t just stop, because your people know you’re not doing anything with the data.


So use your data, use black box thinking. What’s working in those things that aren’t working? Dig down and figure out why.


The ROI methodology in this whole conversation about alignment is ensuring that programs deliver value.


And if they don’t, the process should lead us toward the answer.


Why not?


Also, with our process, comes a set of standards.


As W Edwards Deming, father of total quality management tells us, a process without standards is not a process, you need standards, standards help ensure you implement the process consistently so that the data captured in the framework are reliable.


In the end, tell that complete story of program success.


You invest in that leadership development program, the officer said, this is relevant to our job, we’re gonna learn these skills, and they go back on the job, and they actually learn and actually apply what they’ve learned.


As a consequence of that application, we see impact.


In crime rate. Crime rate goes down, and we know that crime like rate went down, because we took a step to isolate the effects of the program.


We convert that reduction in crime rate to money.


Compare it to the cost.


Here’s the ROI in here, all the intangibles of that program.


So your child that complete story program’s success.


Here, again, are the resources.


Love to see some questions. I think we actually have a couple of minutes.


Yes. So we do have some time here for questions. If you have them, please type them into the Questions box, and I’ll be able to answer those for you here today.


We did have a question come in from Jane, and Jane would like to know, is it always possible to isolate the effects of my program from other factors? Yes, ma’am. It is. Excuse me. I’ve got myself excited. I’m sure I’m going over here. Apologies, guys.


Yes, ma’am, it is. Worst-case your use estimation process. Ideal case you set up an experiment.


What we’re finding is that, and thank goodness for technology and focused on analytics, we’re becoming more comfortable with experimental experimentation.


No, It’s part of that design thinking. So we’re seeing an uptick in the use of control group that’s ideal.


But if you can’t and you can’t use trainline analysis or some kind of modeling, then yes, you can isolate the effect of the program using estimates.


So short answer is every time sometimes you just have to go ask, right?


The key is following a process to get to the answer.


So, with our estimation process, we start with a fact.


So, you start with the improvement in the measure, so, whatever the measure is to start with facts, and then you identify the most credible source of data.


That’s our guiding principle, number three, we always give them as credible source of data, and then we ask three questions.


The first question is, you know, what caused it?


Second question is, as a percentage, how much of the improvement is due to the program?


The third question is, how confident are you that last question?


So, it’s supported by our guiding principle, number seven. Anytime we use estimates, we always adjust for the error estimates.


And that guiding principle supports our guiding principle number four, which says we always assume the most conservative value. So, that estimation process can be very, very powerful.


So, again, thank you for the question. Short answer is, yes, you can. You can always use estimates, but make sure you use a very clear process.


Your ability, this is for all of it, not just isolation, but your ability to explain what you’re doing, how you’re doing it, and why you’re doing it, is very important to the success of your values, your evaluation, but also to your credibility and reliability of your story.


It sounds like that got it.


Great. And we have another question here from an economic, would like show how do you measure the impact of a project?


Thank you, same way.


So, we use project program initiative, it’s the same way because your project is intended to do something, you know, why the project at all?


And I just spoke with a group in Dubai on … project management.


But a program, a training program, is nothing but a project.


That’s all. it is, is just call it a training program.


So you do it the same way. You get started out with the why. Why are we doing this project?


And let’s just say, let me just quickly, I think we have a couple of them as I’m going to show you guys something real quick.


Just an easy, something you guys could do.


Left side of the V as I mentioned, the ideal world is going to start here before you get the solution.


But we often are handed a solution, right?


Or we’ve got a solution in mind, but let’s just say you’re handed a solution. So.


I’m the boss. I go to Sarah, and I say, Sarah.


I read a good book, Crucial Conversations. I want a two-day workshop next Thursday and Friday.


I will share… to facilitate it, and I want these supervisors to go, and I want to see a positive ROI.


Now, if Sarah were to say yes, great idea boss, she not only owns the program, but she owns the ROI on the program.


So because Sarah knows not to do that, Sarah is going to change this dynamic changes dialog that’s occurring, she’s going to say, great idea, get it straight.


You want to have a workshop, two-day workshop, are Crucial Conversations, and you want those supervisors to go and you … to facilitate it next Thursday and Friday, and you will see a positive ROI.


That’s exactly right, precisely what I want.


And then she says, OK, what exactly is it? You want these people to learn?


A little bit, Sara and I say, I want them to learn how to have a crucial conversation.


Sarah says, that’s what I thought. just double checking. What exactly do you want them to do that they’re not doing now? That they could do if they knew how to have a crucial conversation?


Let’s say I want those supervisors to start having a crucial conversation with those employees who aren’t showing up for work.


Sarah says, OK, let me just repeat it back to you. Just be clear.


You want to have a two-day workshop, Crucial Conversations, with those supervisors, next Thursday and Friday night, Sharon Laborde, to facilitate it, and you want to see a positive ROI?


You want to do that, because you want them to know how they have a crucial conversation, and you want them to know how to do it, because you want those supervisors to start having a crucial conversation with those employees who aren’t showing up for work.


Are you telling me, Patti that we have an absenteeism problem?


Look at Sarah. It’s like, Well, yes. Here. That’s what I’ve been saying this whole time.


So what she has done by changing the questions as she’s taken, what the boss wants, your Patti’s rent, a great blog of a Crucial Conversations to that workshop she’s taken that and she’s realigned right, because right now it’s just about Crucial Conversations workshop. It’s an activity.


No, I want them to learn something new so they will do something new so we can address absenteeism.


And then if Sarah is really good at it, she’ll say, well, Patti, OK, granted, you want to reduce absenteeism. Where are we? Where do we need to be?


We’re at 9%. We need me at 5% and then Sarah says, OK, got it.


How much does one absence costs as it costs about $900 a day for these employees?


So now what she’s done is not only connected it to the business measure that needs to improve, she’s identified a target for improvement and the value of an absence. That’s all you need to do. So for those of you who are engaged in processes now, or they’re handed to just change the question, OK, great idea, what do you want them to learn?


What do we want them to do with what they learn and why do we want them to do that, and what is it worth to us?


And in that document, the alignment conversation, all of that is in there.


That whole alignment document, that conversation, I think, is exactly that. Chair Lavoy example is in this document.


If that’s what we want to do, we want to get to where we know what we’re doing, how we’re doing it, while we’re doing it that way.


OK, and with projects, It’s the same thing, it could be coaching, projects’, marketing, deployment services, you know, whatever that thing is that you.


So we’d love to see you guys join us for certification Sometime. This is an opportunity, if commercial.


Please join us for the certification. It is the most sought-after certification around ROI methodology. We have a lot of fun. Bring your projects. We go through your project planning, we teach you the entire process.


But more than that, let us hear from you.


Well, not more than that, but in addition to that, let us hear from you what we can do.


Download the tools, and the resources, and if you want to session on what caused it, the isolation step, or if you want a session on converting measures to money, please let Sarah know.


We can line that up for you, OK, thanks all for attending. I hope you’re warm and out of the snow wherever you are.


And that, if you’re in other places where it’s too hot, it’s not too hot.


Anyway, I’m glad that you join any more questions.


I’ll hang around here for just another minute, if you do, but let us hear from you, OK, and if you want to pop our e-mail and if you want to pop your e-mail in the chat, so they have that, and you can certainly put mine in, as well.


Sent them out, so thank you much, Sarah. Thanks for another opportunity.


Yeah, thank you so much for your time today, Patti, and for another great session. Today’s webinar was sponsored by HRDQstore, HRDQstore provides you with tools for calculating, ROI for your learning initiatives. Be prepared to prove the value of your learning initiatives before they are cut from the budget. Learn more at


That is all the time that we have for today. Again, thank you very much for joining us today, Patti, and thank you all for participating in today’s webinar. Happy Training.


Thank you, all. Let us hear from you.


Thanks, Sarah.

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One Response

  1. Q&A from the webinar.

    Question: Is it always possible to isolate the effects of my program from other factors?

    Answer: Yes, ma’am, it is. Worst-case, your use estimation process. Ideal case, you set up an experiment. What we’re finding is that, and thank goodness for technology and focusing on analytics, we’re becoming more comfortable with experimental experimentation. It’s part of design thinking. So we’re seeing an uptick in the use of control group that’s ideal. But if you can’t, and you can’t use train line analysis or some kind of modeling, then yes, you can isolate the effect of the program using estimates.

    Question: How do you measure the impact of a project?

    Answer: So, we use project program initiative, it’s the same way because your project is intended to do something, you know, why the project at all? But a program, a training program, is nothing but a project. That’s all it is, is just call it a training program. So you do it the same way. You get started out with the why. Why are we doing this project?


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